Our Episode Transcripts are produced by Descript. Some words/dialogue may not be transcribed with 100% accuracy.
Ellie: [00:00:00] In this episode of Law Talks, current ICCA Bar student Jemma Creamer discusses the work of Lawyers Who Care, which was launched to foster care experience talent in legal careers. Jemma is the Chief Operations Officer. and discusses the ethos of the initiative. The following firms and chambers are mentor organisations of Lawyers Who Care.
Dawson Cornwall, Wilson's Listers LLP, Oliver Conway, 3VB, Blackstone Chambers, Garden Court Chambers, East Anglia Chambers, Spire Barristers, GT Stewart and One Crown Office Row.
To start us off, please could you tell us about how you first became interested in a career in the law and what stage of your legal [00:01:00] career you're at?
Gemma: Um, hi Ellie. Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here today. I'm Gemma Kramer. I'm the Chief Operations Officer at Lawyers Who Care. Also a bar student at the Innsford College of Advocacy.
Why law? Great question and a question that I always dread on every application I ever fill out for, um, mini pubilages or work experience. I think my interest in law also stems to why my interest to get involved and help set up and run Lawyers Who Care started. I'm Gemma I was in foster care from the age of 14.
I saw firsthand the advantages of having a good advocate and also at the same time suffered the disadvantages of having not so good of an advocate. I aspire to go into family law and help young people whose voices struggle to be heard, like mine did at one point in time. And like, I see so many young people coming through the care system.
Uh, so that was really one of my motivators behind law. Um, also another one that is quite the cliche, but again, a testament to my [00:02:00] own personal story, and one that people do laugh at, was Legally Blonde, the movie. The reason Legally Blonde is actually, it was, it was an inspiration for me at a young age, very young age, at that point in time, probably at one of the most turbulent points in my life, where the future was very uncertain, but one thing I did know was where I wanted to get to, and I was going to get there no matter what it took, and I think that the sentiment behind legally blonde and the message in it was there was a woman that despite all opinions and thoughts of people around her, you know, she knew what she set out to achieve and she wasn't afraid to step outside the box and be different.
And that really, you know, it resonated with me that, you know, despite my background, despite the fact that my approach into law and into becoming a family barrister is not that of the traditional route and to instead see that there is an advantage in the adversities I've faced. And that was also, yeah, another motivator to, to go into law.
Ellie: Thank you very much. I agree. I love the movie, Legally Blonde, just still such a inspiration and I've [00:03:00] watched it so many times I can't count but you've kind of you've already introduced the initiative of Lawyers Who Care So I think our listeners will be really interested if you could please Explain to them a little bit more about what the Lawyers Who Care initiative is and describe what its main mission is
Gemma: Yeah, 100%.
So Lawyers Who Care is an organisation that was initially set up and founded by Kate Orby Johnson, who's a barrister at Garden Court Chambers, and Lucy Barnes, who previously I've been saying is a future pupil barrister, but no longer, and is now a pupil barrister at East Anglian Chambers. Lucy, I believe, came to Kate with the original idea after facing challenges herself in accessing a career that Can for many be so isolating and daunting if you don't have any legal work experience or knowledge or even individuals in the profession to sort of lean on and, and, and gain that knowledge from.
And as a result, we had an initial meeting where I too met with Lucy and she knew at that moment, she said that she was going to bring me on to lead this with her. At that point, [00:04:00] we didn't have anything set up. This was probably October last year. And since then, it has just gone from strength to strength.
So what we essentially do is we facilitate Care experience individuals, so individuals, for those of you who don't know, that have been in foster care or at some point in time have had experience with the care system. We do include adoption as well and other forms of care. So we facilitate those individuals going on into legal careers and also, and that's done through a mentoring scheme.
And we also try to facilitate in the best way possible we can paid work experience. But the initiative itself, it derived from both mine and Lucy's personal experience of our hurdles in accessing the career. For You know, some of these to name a few is the financial barriers in the care community. We call it the bank of mum and dad.
We do have what's called a corporate parent, but more often than not, that corporate parent, which is the local authority fall short on their obligations in, you know, supporting these young people, you know, through university and into a legal career, which at times is quite shocking because you would think a local [00:05:00] authority themselves have, you know, quite a broad network to be able to get young people in care that experience, but unfortunately that, that's not there.
So, you know, the lack of legal network, the lack of, you know, capital, one of those other hurdles that both myself and Lucy face was having to work multiple part time jobs, myself full time jobs alongside my studies, which we see so commonly with a lot of care experience individuals. And often that comes at the sacrifice of their studies.
Um, so we, we saw that as another hurdle. So what we aim to do is through trying to facilitate paid work experience when we bring on board our mentor organizations, which is firms or chambers. Um, we offer them a free consultation on their current paid work experience, whether that be for a mini pupillage, a vacation scheme, whatever it may be.
And we consult them on how they can make that more inclusive to care experience. You know, it's not just enough any, any longer to just say, are you, you know, are you a care leaver on an application? You know, when we bring on board our mentors, we [00:06:00] train them in both care aware and trauma informed training before they go and work with these mentees.
So even small additions like saying on that application form, please do feel free to disclose that you are a care expert because we have professionals that are trained to understand your hurdles and we want to do what's best to support you. You know, that goes that little step further, not all the way, but it goes that little step further.
In, in making a young person or someone who's, I say young person, we do have no care leaver cut off age, so the individuals coming on board of our program can be 20, 30, 40 years old, even if it's a career change, they can be coming on board with us and we would support them. But it isn't, like I said, just enough anymore to tick that box and say, are you a care leaver?
And that's where that support ends, which we see so commonly. So yeah, the initiative started off as a, you know, as a consequence, I guess, of both myself and Lucy's hurdles and stories we'd heard over time. And since then, we've been trying to change the legal narrative and landscape as we know it.
Ellie: Thank you very much.
And yeah, I mean, I was [00:07:00] obviously looking at the Lawyers2Care website, and you've, you've, you know, summarized it really nicely, but the kind of range of different things that you guys focus on and actually give like active responses to was really stood out to me. So yeah, for example, like paid work experience.
And I think hopefully we're gonna discuss all of that as we go through the episode. And if I could just slightly as a kind of link, I guess, to your first question, but I was just curious when you came to that. stage where you knew you wanted to go into the law. Was it your, your kind of experience of the courts that drew you to the bar over the solicitor side of things?
Your experience of family courts?
Gemma: I think, I, I didn't first hand go through the family court system. My journey into care was very different. My mum sadly passed away when I was nine years old, just very suddenly in her sleep. And due to the subsequent breakdown in relationship with my father, a few years after, it became unsafe.
For me to be at home. So I was just placed into a respite placement. It was only meant to be a temporary placement. I was with them and I was moved to another one because the intention was, [00:08:00] despite the safety concerns, it was the intention to put me back in that home if certain things were addressed and followed up on.
I mean, unfortunately, that didn't happen and it got progressively worse. So it meant that I was actually going to be remaining in foster care. But I was, I was putting one home on respite for two weeks, which became my forever home for four years. And those were my foster carers, Shelly and Nicholas, who I literally owe so much to and I try not to get emotional when I speak about them because they really did change my life.
At that stage in my life, I think I needed someone who could believe in me. And this feeds into the question you've asked about why, why the barrister route and not the solicitor route. And I think this is because ever since I was young and maybe a reason why I was placed into care, I could never not speak up if something wasn't right.
It was something I would, I would always find a way to voice it or articulate, and I could articulate myself very well, surprisingly, at 13 and 14. I could hold a very good argument. I knew my points. I would always come prepared. And I think that's what naturally drew me to the Barrister route. [00:09:00] There has been one point in time where I've considered taking the Solicitor route, and that was when I did first year skills development initiative with McFarlane, where when I experienced their work culture, it was just second to none, and I thought, wow, I could really see myself here.
But that journey, it didn't continue for, for much longer than that. I think it was just a blip, but I will say, you know, I, I, myself, I'm only 22 right now and, you know, for any aspiring barristers, solicitors, whoever on this call, I can still sit here and say, I'm not 100 percent sure that I've picked the right journey and that's okay.
You know, I think there's a lot of professionals in the industry now that sometimes. You know, they're not, they're not willing to listen to that inside voice that's maybe telling them they're not happy or, you know, the work is taking the toll on them. And I think it's okay to admit that. But I'm just following on this journey.
I've had a mentor, Paul Bowen. I have to say Casey, cause I don't think he'd, he'd hate me for not saying that, but I think he deserves, he deserves all the credentials. He's very well earned, but he's been my mentor since I was [00:10:00] 16. And that was through luck. Another reason why Lawyers Who Care was set up was because we didn't want to leave opportunity down to luck for individuals who are in care.
And I got put in touch with him through my neighbor and it was, he, you know, he's a barrister at Brick Court Chambers and it was through getting experience with him, shadowing him in court that I was like, wow, I could, you know, I could really do this. And he sat as a judge as well down in Brighton and Hove.
And going and seeing that firsthand for me, I was like, wow, I, I could do this, like, I want to help. And, you know, then subsequently the experience I've gained in shadowing barristers, you know, when they win a case, seeing that individual, the emotion that comes out of that, the reward, the reward that comes from it, I think that was very much for me.
I also, I can work in a team, but I'm very much, if I have, if I have an opinion, I really want to lead on it. I think that's the business woman in me as well. Like if I have a vision, you know, I believe the definition of a leader is that you have a vision and your role as a leader is to inspire everyone else around you to believe in that same vision.
And that's what I'm [00:11:00] like, I do struggle with taking criticism. Lucy will probably laugh when she listens and it's something I'm working on still to this day. But yeah, I think just. The barrister route, it was, it was a mixture of multiple experience first hand seeing things myself and also just my personal qualities, but the additional point I'm making on that is, you know, it's not something that's always set in stone and it should never be.
I'm on my route to the bar and I'm going to do my very best to qualify as a family barrister and I'm probably going to be an incredible barrister, I tell myself every day, but if at one point that career change comes, then it comes. I'm very much, I believe everything happens for a reason and I always trust in the process.
Ellie: Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and how you became interested in legal career. I think that's, first of all, I can definitely see that you have a, like, fantastic advocacy abilities in expressing yourself. And yeah, I think that that's really, it's always so helpful to hear because you meet a lot of, a lot of the time when you, if you have the opportunity to meet kind of barristers, [00:12:00] they're settled in their career already, that it can be such a daunting stage, kind of choosing that split between Celestia and Barrister.
And I think it's a fun, I mean, I, yeah, I'm 24 now and I'm, I'm fairly sure that I want to go bar, but yeah, there's still always like not that 100 percent confidence. So it's really good to hear that.
Gemma: It's okay. And I think, you know, Elliot, because There's so much stigma, I think, still around certain professions, especially the legal profession.
You have to fit a particular type of mold, be a particular type of person, articulate yourself a type of way. And I think, you know, that's, especially with Lawyers Who Care, that's what we're trying to change and we're trying to break. I mean, it's quite sad, really, because since we've launched, we have had individuals in the profession reach out to us.
saying that they still to this day after 10 years of being in the profession have never disclosed their care experience. And you know, Lucy describes pity as the backhand of prejudice. And unfortunately that still does exist, you know, in, in this career, not only just due to care experience, we see this with race, we see this with, you know, the gender inequality and everything that's [00:13:00] moving forward towards that.
But in terms of. Yeah, it's okay not to know whether bar is for you or solicitors for you. And what I will say, I did just come off a call with a, with a young aspiring lawyer, who's also care experienced. And I, I just said the same thing to her. I said to her, you know, you might think this is what you want to do, but my best advice to any aspiring lawyers, you know, care experienced or not is to go and get as much experience as you can in all different fields, go and experience what the solicitor lifestyle is like, you know, cause that's very much, you know, especially when it comes to corporate and commercial people don't actually have their expectations managed accordingly to what that lifestyle looks like, they think it's very glamorous, but the expectations that come with that is, is.
I don't even know how to put it into words. It's crazy. So I just say, you know, go and get as much experience as possible. You're not meant to have it all figured out. There's people at 30, 40 years old that still haven't got it figured out. So just, for me, you know, same way I'd even say this to you Ellie, I'm on my bar course [00:14:00] now with Ikka, who's absolutely brilliant.
And I'm gonna go and I'm gonna get my qualification and, And I'm going to stay on my journey to becoming a barrister. But like I said before, if, if that doesn't end up being what's for me next year or in 10 years time, then I'm not afraid to listen to that in a voice and make that change.
Ellie: Yeah, thank you.
I think you've, you've summed that up so well, the idea that you can go for something, but it doesn't have to be like the, your kind of one career in life. And yeah, there's lots of other options and definitely that as much as, as you've already said, it's so difficult to get work experience, particularly if you haven't had the opportunity to just network kind of casually with lawyers, but really the work experience isn't.
Is where you actually get to see what it's actually like in different types of the law and they differ so, so much. It's not
Gemma: suits, that's for sure. Yeah. If anyone's seen Suits that's listening, it is not suits.
Ellie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, as soon as you kind of realize a lot of the glamour is just TV. It really changes.
It's very much suits. Definitely. And yeah, so you've just spoke [00:15:00] about how obviously you've just come off a mentoring course. So kind of for people who are listening, and as you said, there's. People throughout people's 10 years into their legal career who haven't disclosed their care experience for someone who is listening and would like to get involved, or even potentially as a mentor, what are the sort of best ways to just initially get involved with Loyalty Care?
Gemma: Yeah. So this year was obviously we launched in May. We signed 10 mentorship organizations, which was absolutely incredible. We only set out to sign on three or four. We ended up signing 10. Wow. Those include in chambers like Blackstones, 3BB, we've got Dawson Garden Court Chambers, which is obviously our co founder, Kate's Chambers.
They're all on our website. You can go and go and check those out. But those are the organizations that are on already. What happens is, is that we sign on organizations as a whole. So the organization would be a firm or chambers. It can even be big corporates. We're also looking at banks for next year because there is in house legal departments.
So we want that breadth of experience to be available for our mentees that come through. So what [00:16:00] happens is, is they, they put themselves forward as an organization. There's a subscription fee that they then pay, and that fee is inclusive of a particular number of mentors, whether that be two, three, or four, five mentors, and those mentors then come on board of our program.
They undertake mandatory training, both in trauma informed and care aware, so that gives them experience in understanding the specific hurdles faced by those who are care experienced, and also understanding how trauma plays a part in why they might respond or behave a particular type of way. So they're trained in that.
And then once they then had that and received that training, they then progress into the course with us where they're then later matched with a mentee who's onboarded onto the program. And it's a two year commitment from our mentors of one hour minimum per month that is subject to them. They can do more, they can offer the mentees that are care experienced to come down and shadow them, maybe in court, come down to the firm, see what that's like.
But the requirement we have from our mentors is of one hour per month, a two year commitment. [00:17:00]
Ellie: Great, thank you. And I can imagine having that two year commitment is like what makes such a big impact because it's like an ongoing networking relationship. And I guess once you've kind of opened that door, then it leads to other really great networking opportunities.
Gemma: Yeah, for sure. And I think the two year is important to us. And this is again what we train in when we do the care aware and the trauma informed training is because for a lot of young people who have been in care, it's been the case that, you know, they've had throughout their time in care numerous social workers, numerous placements, um, So we say two years because it's so important that this person has that stability and consistency from an individual that's coming in their life and, and arguably going to make the biggest impact for their career, which we hope.
So we, we factor in that the first, you know, two, three months first, because it's one hour per month, the first three sessions will be on building that trust with that young person to get to know them on a certain level, you know, form that connection that, that can then be what helps progress them to the next stage of you working with them on their CV.
It might be preparing them for interviews, looking at pupillage [00:18:00] applications, application for vacation schemes. And that's really what we ask of our mentors. Um, in terms of what we ask of our mentor orgs, it's just that constant championing of care experience. Like I mentioned earlier on, as one of the benefits that comes with onboarding with us is we offer a free consultation on your paid work experience.
So we look at how it could be made more inclusive, which not only, I will say, supports care experience because, you know, you know, I don't often like to look at the statistics that are quite damning on individuals of care experience, but, you know, statistics do show that a large proportion of the homeless population and prison population is care experience.
There's a lot of intersectionality between care experience. A lot of care experience people are neurodivergent. So what we see it as with lawyers who care is that when we lift a care experienced individual, we often lift a lot of the wider society as well. So we, we consult chambers and firms on their paid work experience and how they can look, you know, to not only make that more inclusive for individuals who are care experienced, but also other individuals.
You know, [00:19:00] we know that for most mini pubiliges that are under three days, it's not paid. Through research we've done, we saw that, you know, 10 a day was what individuals are afforded. And for, you know, young people or care experience, individuals, homelessness is a real and very perceived threat. So like attending university, they'll often be working part time, full time jobs alongside that.
And to go and undertake work experience in a firm or chambers will come at a financial sacrifice. And that could put them in a, in a very damaging place. And, and more often than not, they can't even disclose that, you know, and some people even have parental responsibilities. So. It's not only they're paying out of their pocket to come and do the experience, they're paying more out of their pocket to cover, you know, parental responsibilities to even do that.
So just to get that experience and that's what Again, at Lawyers Who Care, I say it very proudly, we are, we are trying to minimize all of those barriers, which in turn won't only help, you know, the care leaver and care experience community, but also other individuals that I know and recognize are coming out of backgrounds, [00:20:00] too, that are very challenging and need that support as well.
Ellie: Thank you. Yeah, I can see how kind of like multifaceted, so trying to overcome like the, um, and yeah, absolutely with the many peopleages and the difficulty of doing unpaid work experience, as well as also having a mentor to kind of support confidence and just like supporting you through the journey in like a two year stable relationship.
I can really see how that's like. impacting the whole range of different barriers to, to the legal career. Um, thank you. And a kind of another aspect that I really wanted to talk about is something that we've heard from previous guests, um, who represent underrepresented areas in the legal career, they talk about, um, you know, the impact of having speakers or hearing people talk, um, at schools or similar environments who, um, have similar backgrounds to, to them discussing like their legal careers and how they became either barristers or solicitors.
And most of the feedback we hear is that this was just hugely encouraging for [00:21:00] them then to go pursue a law and a career in the law. And again, from reading up on Lawyers Who Care, I see that you have the Lawyers Who Care and like virtual schools initiative. So I wonder if we could discuss that a little bit.
Gemma: 100%. I completely agree as someone who first hand sat in on conferences and talks of women who are in law, probably at the pinnacle points in their career. I, even as of yesterday, went and heard Baroness Hale of Richmond, who I think we all know as an I, went and heard her speak at an event led by Coram, And that was just amazing.
I think she's just so raw and so authentic. And, you know, she spoke about, cause we were talking, the conversation was about inspiring women in public office. And, you know, she spoke about never herself feeling the injustice of being a woman. And I know this is something that a lot of women do feel, but I, what I loved about what she said was, she just said, she always happened to be in the right place at the right time.
She said, you know, when she became one of the first female judges, she said, [00:22:00] The, you know, the commissioners were more than aware that females were needed. So she was that appointment. Same way for the being the president of the Supreme Court. She was the first ever female to be that. So again, it was needed.
So she never saw that as a, I'm a female, I'm going to be put into this position because I'm a female. She would, she was explaining that I'm Brenda Hale and I'm being put into this position because of who I am. I mean, I think that's something, you know, in life, you, you should apply to everything. Never see that you get an experience or you go into a certain thing.
or something is given to you because of your experience, it's given to you because of who you are and she funnily enough said if that experience always take every opportunity and if it doesn't work out it's their fault not yours which was it had the whole room laughing because it's very true because they obviously saw something in you in the beginning to give you the experience So if it didn't work out in, in, in Baroness Hale of Richmond's words, it's on them, not you.
But yeah, I think those talks are, are incredible. You know, some of our mentees even traveled all the way down from Liverpool, um, yesterday to [00:23:00] come and attend that event. And that was the first event they ever did. ever have attended and the messages I've had since just saying how inspiring that was um, for them even to know that they could reach a point like that in their career.
Some people don't even know those things are available and readily available to them. I think they play a big part in inspiring this next generation and something I do encourage whenever I speak to lawyers or, you know, solicitors, barristers, whatever it may be, or even just more so individuals that I believe have a story to tell and one that's inspiring.
I say, you know, go into schools, universities and deliver those tools because you need to try and inspire this next generation, especially when it comes to law. I think there's such a stigma around what the profession is, but when you get into it, it very much is, is, is a lot different than what it, than what I'm not going to say the media portrays it to be, but what it portrays itself as it's very different when you really do get into it.
In terms of what we run, so we have, we have kind of a couple outreach programs. We do a unique selling point workshops. So that's when we go into schools, both with care experience and [00:24:00] also individuals that are, you know, young people that are quite, have quite challenging needs. We go in and we talk to them on, on what learning, what their unique selling point is.
for most people that care experience. I talk about that as being your care experience because my slogan is adversity to advantage. I believe that as long as you have the right mindset, you can turn anything around in your life. So we, we go in and deliver unique selling point workshops. We also run like mock court trials.
So we have a resource packs created of like some Calvin Klein underwear has been stolen from TK Maxx. I think a lot of young people will relate to that. But, yeah, we have a scenario created up that, you know, some Calvin Klein underwear's been stolen from TK Maxx. And we give both sides their argument, you know, the defense, prosecution.
We bring in the wigs and gowns, and we get young people engaged in that. And the reason for that is we call the program Bringing the Law Back Down to Earth. Because for a lot of young people, Lucy said the first person she knew was a barrister or a lawyer was Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones diary. And that just shows you the lack of, [00:25:00] you know, legal network that a lot of these care experienced people have.
Some of them, when I say I'm, I'm, you know, studying to qualify as a barrister, they have no clue, they think I'm a coffee maker, that is often, I think a lot of barristers can probably relate to that, that is often the response, even a lawyer they still get confused on, on what that does, who, what they do, and what their role is, so we tried to bring it back down to earth, and that's why we create a scenario that's relatable and fun and engaging, and it's to, it's to try and you know raise their, you know, Raise the bar in a, you know, in a phrase that links with what we do, but raise the bar and bring the law back down to earth.
So raise the bar to which they see their self going on and achieving and raise those standards of themselves to say, Do you know what? No, I, I can be a lawyer. Like, you know, a lot of individuals who go through care, they're often sat at tables where there's, you know, multiple people, you know, for anyone who's listening, who's worked with children in care or is part of that community, you know, young people sit in and have looked after child meetings, POPs, PEPs, PEPs [00:26:00] of personal education plans, multiple meetings where you have adults that, your foster carers, your teachers, you have the liaison officers, there's multiple people in that meeting, more often than not, that are talking about you without even inputting your opinion.
Ellie: Thank you so much, that was such a, I mean, I think that the Virtuous Cause initiative So many aspects of it sound really fantastic and I agree that the the kind of like mooting mucking side with those examples that people in school can relate to like I I think sometimes when I mean even like now at university like looking at some legal things the thing like how you first get involved is when you look at when you read cases or you or you read an example where you can kind of almost put it into everyday life and yeah, see the way that it impacts the law is kind of regulating the life around you.
I think that's such a great way to get involved. But something that really just stood out to me was when you were talking about the workshops for unique selling points, because [00:27:00] having done applications myself and being in an environment with lots of other law students who are just constantly doing applications, that is such a skill from kind of the first I mean, the first application form you have to fill out, you just, you are expected kind of how to know, to talk about your personal experience and be able to present these different experiences that you've had to sell yourself to all these different firms.
And yeah, that just really stood out to me, kind of using your different unique experiences to be able to do that because I think it's something that takes people a really long time to learn. And it's, yeah. It's really a hard skill to develop. And,
Gemma: you know, added to that, Ellie, it comes into what I was saying earlier about it's okay not to know.
As in, it's okay not to know if something is for you or if this is the path. That's the whole point of, you know, qualifying and getting into the role and getting as much experience beforehand as possible. Like, I certainly would not be pursuing a career as a barrister if I didn't think it was a career I could, I could really thrive in and I, that I wasn't passionate for.
So I know that it's [00:28:00] 100 percent the right career choice for me. But, you know, in, in playing into what you've just said, I think the unique selling point, it's really all about knowing yourself. And I do believe, you know, this is separate to law now, but we are in a generation where this whole self help, you know, becoming the best version of yourself, you know, this, this, There's a huge generation, there's a huge wave of, you know, basically doing what is right for you now and becoming the best version of yourself, you know, through self help books, manifestations, all of this stuff is now happening.
So I would always urge people, you know, to, to do that deep dive into yourself and really reflect on, on what it is you're applying for, why you are applying for it. Ask yourself the hard and the challenging questions and get the answers to it because this is a career you're entering into for. The next five to 10 years of your life.
And if you don't have the passion and it's not something you enjoy, you're not going to be happy. And we see it all the time with individuals not staying in the profession or, you know, not having, not working to the full potential in which [00:29:00] they could, because they don't enjoy the job they're in. So I always urge, you know, young people to go and get that breadth, breadth of experience going, go and gain as much exposure to the profession to be certain on that and make sure that is your choice.
And, you know, especially, I think there's so much pressure as well, Ellie, on a lot of young people now to come out of university, go straight into a bar course, secure a vacation scheme. When a lot of these people are just now finding themselves, they're just figuring out what they like, what they don't like.
You know, they're entering probably in some of the most. important relationships they think are the most important relationships at that stage in their life. Um, so there's a lot of things going on, but I do think there is so much pressure on young people nowadays. And I just want to send that message out, that it's okay not to know.
I know I keep repeating myself, but it really is. And, um, What I will say is I think that in especially law firms, there's very much a culture moving more towards inclusivity and Owning the differences that you have and there's very much more of a movement [00:30:00] on having a good work culture one that balances family life And personal life with work life.
I mean, I think that's playing a big part So something I always look at if I'm applying for schemes or mini pupillages or whatever, I always look at the work culture within that chambers to see if it's somewhere I can fit in and somewhere that aligns with my morals and my values of what I, what sort of barrister I want to be.
So yeah, that, that's something I would always advise on applications to just always look that, you know, as much as it is, Does this Chambers or does this firm want me? It should also be, do I actually want them? Do I want to work
for them?
Gemma: So always see that and always, you know, try and find your unique selling point.
And that's going to be different for everyone. But own in on that. Often, you know, your story is your story and you're only ever going to be the one to tell it best. So you have to tell it. Don't give that pen to someone else.
Ellie: Thank you. Yeah, that is, that's, I mean, fantastic advice and I think really sums up the, I, I suppose like, yeah, the questions you have to ask yourself and the things [00:31:00] that you're required to, to think about and analyze when you're kind of thinking about and applying for that legal career.
And we've talked about it a little bit, but now to, to again, focus in on this idea of paid work experience and consulting with your different partners for paid work experience. I actually, I won't. name the chambers, but for the first time, I think very recently for the first time I went on a chambers website and they offered like two, two versions of many people that just, and one of them was paid.
So that's a, that's a really great change to see. So again, I mean, I know we've touched on this a little bit, but just to kind of expanding on why this is a focus and why this is so crucial, because I, I completely agree and advocate for, for paid work experience, but particularly from the experience of care experience, aspiring lawyers.
And hopefully we'll continue to see this increasing. But to kind of discuss why this is so crucial for care experience aspiring lawyers, and what kind of, I mean, if you can answer this, but what is the overall aim? Is it to kind of have [00:32:00] work experience will be like a full paid internship? Which, what do you think is the kind of?
ambition that firms and chambers should be aiming for?
Gemma: I think at a bare minimum, firms and chambers at the outset should always be offering expenses at the bare minimum to be paid, whether that be travel expenses, food expenses, you know, it, it should on that application request things like, do you have children?
Is there childcare support you might need to undertake this free and voluntary unpaid work experience? I think that's always the starting point is to be more inclusive on understanding You know, and this is, this is what plays into what I just said a minute ago about knowing whether that thermal chambers is for you.
You, you know, someone who's a mum of, let's say, two or three, something that came up in yesterday's conference, you don't really want to go to a Chambers or a firm where, you know, there's not many individuals that are parents. Perhaps the head of Chambers isn't someone who's a parent and hasn't been through that similar experience.
So you want to look for where you can resonate and where, [00:33:00] where you feel that you can be best supported. And there are Chambers that exist out there. I know Lucy, primarily chose East Anglian Chambers for that very reason. She chose East Anglian Chambers primarily because of, you know, the way in which they support families or individuals that are pursuing legal careers that have families.
Lucy herself, you know, she's married now and has an amazing son. I'm, I must slide that in because as someone who is care experienced myself, having been through the care system, going on to have children can almost be one of the most difficult, difficult, but probably most rewarding. Challenges that life can throw at you because you don't want to repeat cycles.
And we see it very often in the care system, you know, where there's generational cycles of, of going through care. So she's already broken down that barrister barrier and it's a huge motivation for me. I mean, I saw a quote once, which was lovely. And anyone who's listening in that's maybe care experienced or, you know, has now gone on coming out of care and had children of their own.
It, it said that fixing your childhood is. Or [00:34:00] creating your childhood is fixing mine. And it was beautiful and it's something that really resonated with me. But, you know, leading back into what we were saying about work experience, I guess for us at Lawyers Who Care, it's really making it as inclusive as possible and considering the factors of which care experience itself presents.
So like I was saying to you before, you know, homelessness is a real and perceived threat for those who are care experienced. So we don't have a sofa to go and surf on of a family member of someone to go and undertake this work experience. So like I said, more often than not, we're putting our hands in our own pocket to go and undertake that.
And most of the time, forsaking our actual work to be able to do that, all just to get that opportunity that can really open doors for us. And that's what we're at lawyers who care. We're aiming to minimize. We want that opportunity to be there, which we're creating. We're creating those opportunities.
We've had marshaling opportunities offered to us. You know, we've had vacation scheme applications presented where firms are going to help. Uh, run workshops on how to apply for vacation schemes and know what you're [00:35:00] applying for and we ourselves take donations for that. So we fund that for these young people where the firms and chambers can't.
Obviously the first stage is always to see if firms and chambers can. But if they can't, we then want to feed in and sort of step in and pay for that. It's important to note we do not have a care leaver cut off age, as I said, so anyone who's had interaction with the care system or is a care leaver and even 30 now can still come on board of our organization.
But yeah, we don't want finance to be a barrier between that person, you know, being able to pursue a career in law that they really want to do or not being able to do it. That's something we aim to bridge, but in terms of what we, what our ultimate aim is, you know, I think anyone, not only individuals who are care experienced, but anyone coming from any background that's been challenging and that's had its challenges, I think would love to see internships, vacation schemes, mini pupilages, all of these paid.
And I think we can eventually move to a time where that does happen, but it is just, it's As I said, it's [00:36:00] going to, it's going to take some time. So that is the ultimate aim is to have those things paid for at least, or at least a minimum, every thermal chambers paying for basic essentials and travel expenses.
Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. And similarly on your. just to touch on when you're saying that there is no cutoff age. It's so true. I, I always talk about aspiring lawyers and I present them as these young people, you know, I'm probably picturing like someone in their early twenties, but as we were saying earlier, you know, you're not set in the one career you pick when you're just coming out of university or you're just coming out of school.
And of course, you know, that can be a whole range of. range of ages and people who have different working backgrounds coming to a career in law. So I think, yeah, it's really fantastic. They're bringing up on the podcast that there's no cutoff for all these different initiatives. And yeah, with talking about paid work experience, yeah, particularly just as a commentary, I guess, with expenses, I can completely see currently now, like in London, most of the chambers, most of the firms are in kind of [00:37:00] like the center of London, even just staying somewhere overnight for a two day work experience.
That's going to be like a huge thing. Yeah,
Gemma: yeah.
Ellie: And I know earlier on you spoke about, again, apologies for slightly, I guess, going like slightly off track here. You spoke about the difference with being at university and the comparison between working like multiple paid jobs compared to those at university who, Who don't have to work to support themselves and I was just thinking I recently yeah, I've read an article and someone talking about how Obviously people when you go to university open days They talk so much about the extra Curriculars and all the things you can get involved with but kind of an unspoken side of things if you're also supporting yourself financially It kind of cuts off some of those like networking activities networking opportunities and also just opportunities to meet and socialize.
And I think hopefully universities will increase to kind of present the other side of people who are going to university.
Gemma: Yeah, I can resonate with that 100 like fully. I worked full, I [00:38:00] say full and part time jobs. That's not even possible. I worked full time alongside my studies for my degree. I still actually work full time now.
I work night shifts on a weekend. For a club, there's a huge juxtaposition between my career I aspire to go into and what I actually do for work. So I literally work seven till five, 6am, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then I'm obviously leading on lawyers who care voluntary, which has been five days a week work, if not even more hours on the weekend where I have the time to do it just to support these individuals that are coming through.
And, you know, alongside that, having to do my bar course, it's now got to the point where I've actually had to limit my lawyers who care down to one day. And still that's not enough time to get done what, what needs to be done, what needs to be done. And same thing, you know, for my bar course, some of them, some people that follow me on LinkedIn would have seen it.
I wasn't, unfortunately, I wasn't successful in securing a scholarship for my bar course. So me being me, and like I said, if, if I can't get at the tables or in the right rooms, I will, Pull up my own chair at my [00:39:00] own table. So I decided to set up a GoFundMe page and I raised the first half of my, of my Bar course on GoFundMe.
And that was through donations, through LinkedIn, through all my legal connects that I'd built over time. And still I'm now here on the Bar course, not knowing how that next installment of 12, 000 pounds is going to be paid next year, but it's something I don't reflect on till now, till, till it comes. And that's something that is a real challenge for a lot of individuals who have a care experience.
Thankfully, my course and one of the reason I chose to go with ICA was because of how, you know, it's independent study, not only that you work it around your timetable, the payments are split out, whereas, you know, when you go to somewhere other bar course providers, more often than not, you have to pay that full large sum upfront.
And a lot of people will not have that money, not just individuals who are care experienced. So for me, that gave me that flexibility. So I would say for anyone listening in who, who's, you know, considering a career at the doesn't know how they're going to fund that if you're not successful for a scholarship.
Always try again. I'm retrying this [00:40:00] year. I'm reapplying for a scholarship this year, but there is BAScals out there. ICA is a very new one, but Just as incredible as these other ones out there providing that additional support and a, and a completely different and alternative structure to take in the bar course, but one that fits the flexibility that some people may need, especially those who want to do it part time, full time, that are maybe working mums, working dads, whoever they may be, you know, parents, whatever, um, that does offer them that flexibility as well, but I, I can definitely account for it.
If I didn't have to work my weekend jobs, if I didn't have to work full time, I believe I probably complete, could have completed my bar course quicker than I already have done. Um, and I would have been able to devote that time, um, to my studies, but unfortunately you, you have to play the hands you've been dealt, you know, these are my cards and I wouldn't change any of my cards for anything because I believe, you know, you grow through what you go through and this is all giving me experience that's going to set me up for the rest of my rest of my career ahead.
But it is a challenge in that there is. you [00:41:00] know, it's, it's a real challenge for a lot of people coming out of university or, you know, doing a career change and wanting to pursue a career at the bar.
Ellie: Yeah. Thank you. Um, again, for, for like illustrating with your experience with, uh, the bar course, and I mean, I'm just looking now at applying for bar courses and going to a few of the open days and the discussion of the expected workload and how many hours while also working such long shifts.
I mean, that's a, that's a huge commitment also with, with lawyers who care. Um, and. A running theme throughout the whole episode has been that firms and chambers are focusing on inclusivity and trying to, well, increase inclusivity and bring in different initiatives. And that is where Lawyers Who Care have come in in multiple different aspects of this.
And, uh, This is quite a kind of broad question, but do you feel the, do you feel the legal profession is doing enough? Is it heading in the right direction for inclusivity? Where would you, I suppose, maybe also to, to focus the question a little bit [00:42:00] more, but where would you like to see kind of big changes coming in different aspects of the legal profession if it was completely up to you?
Gemma: No, it, it's, it's a very good question and I want to answer this one carefully. Do I believe the industry is doing enough? I do. Do I think that the intentions behind what they're doing are always true and always genuine? I don't. I think this is why it's so important for people with first hand experience to be the ones paving that change and paving and marking the way for change.
You know, whether it be down to race, sexuality, class, you know, for us it's care experience. I think it's important that those are the people that lead the way for the change because, you know, we see with firms they have their corporate social responsibilities same way chambers do. Are they doing enough or is it really just about ticking a box?
And, and that's the thing that never really has sat right with me. I always think that, you know, People should want to do something for the greater good, not just to comply [00:43:00] with regulation or comply with, you know, whatever it is they need to do. And that's why I think when it comes to CSR initiatives and things like that, it has to be those who want to make the change for their community or for the group in which they're part of and they're representing have to be the ones to lead the way.
Something I also say and I see so often and, you know, this. People might not agree with me, people may agree with me, but I see this even in the care community. There is so much competition over collaboration, and that is one thing at Lawyers Who Care, is we have set out to, to minimize. We do not, we are not afraid to promote the work of other initiatives, other organizations, even if it does not, does not directly benefit ourselves, you know.
And I think that's, You know, we see that so much in the care community and I know anyone who's part of that will, will completely resonate with it, you know, whether it's competition for funding, my, how I've always seen it is that, you know, for young people coming out of care, if every institute or everybody did what they set [00:44:00] out to achieve and we worked collaboratively.
the outcomes of care experienced people will be second to none. It would not, you wouldn't see some of these hurdles we currently see. You wouldn't see the statistics of the prison population, the homeless population ending up as high as they are, if everyone worked collaboratively. And it's the same way I look at initiatives now coming forward in the legal profession.
Is that there's a lot of organizations out there that could have done what we were doing, but for some reason we were needed. And you know, that, that I guess is my point, you know, there's initiatives out there, we all set out and we work collaboratively and it's something I would love to encourage. All the organizations and initiatives that exist out there for diversity, for inclusion, is to collaborate with one another, to make that change together, not individually, because I believe greatest change happens when, when we come together and we, we, we commit to a common goal together.
So, yeah, I think that if that answers your question, I think it's more so my messages. collaboration over competition every single time and it [00:45:00] to be individuals who have direct and effective experience to be the one that paved the way for that change.
Ellie: No, thank you. That answered my question perfectly.
And actually I've heard a similar, I suppose like in comparison, this idea of like competition between, I was, Speaking to someone who worked like in the charity sector and they were saying how that's a problem with different charities that they end up competing against each other when really that combined initiatives would do so much, so much good.
And yeah, I think that's, that's such a interesting and important perspective to, to talk about because you're absolutely right. Obviously, I mean, LinkedIn now, there are so many different initiatives that have, I mean, fantastic missions that together could collaboratively bring.
Gemma: 100%.
Ellie: So much good. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you very much. And I guess we, we usually finish off with a question kind of on advice for our listeners who are obviously predominantly aspiring lawyers. So what would be your main advice for and in particular kind of care experienced [00:46:00] aspiring lawyers?
Gemma: My advice, I guess it would be advice I'd give my younger self, is to be yourself.
Don't change for nobody or anything, unless it's obviously for a greater cause. Always try and become the best version of yourself, but never feel that you have to shrink or dim your light to just fit into a particular mold. I believe your vibe, I say your vibe attracts your tribe and that relates to both wherever you end up professionally and also the people in which you surround yourself with.
And always try, take every opportunity that comes your way, even if you don't think, even if you're slightly hesitant, that is this right opportunity for me? Take every single opportunity that comes your way. Because like I said earlier on, you grow through what you go through. And I believe that, you know, experience, even if you're going into a career in law, and you get offered experience that is not legal work experience, it could be work experience, even working in a retail shop, whatever that experience is, that still gives you experience that presents transferable skills that can help you in this profession.
So [00:47:00] never be afraid to take any opportunity, be yourself and don't shrink for no one. That would be my advice.
Ellie: Thank you so much, and thank you for, for coming on the podcast.
Comments